Fr. Corn. I would say, Good-day, Herman; but I am quite wrought up and angry yet from yesterday, at your accursed hedge-preacher, or teacher, who has so wickedly seduced, deceived, crazed, be deviled and bewitched you and your fellow Anabaptists by his damnable, hellish, Anabaptistic heresies, out there in the miserable Gruthuysbosch. Hence I must now come here and try whether I can draw you away again from this Anabaptism, and convert you to our Catholic Christian faith; have you a mind for it, or not? Let us hear now.
Herm. To judge from your speaking, I should think that you are angry, and if you had not told me yourself, I would have thought, that you wanted to frighten me. But why are you so angry at that friendly, pleasant man, who I think did not give you one hard word?
Fr. Corn. He nevertheless called me a papist once or twice; but I do not care * * * for that; but I am very angry that he would in no wise suffer himself to be converted from his accursed Anabaptism and all other accursed heresies, in regard to which I have spent so much labor in vain; and the most vexatious of all is, that though I so well showed, and convinced him of, his bad, evil, wicked, false, heretical faith, as these good lords have well heard, it was all of no avail; ill betide him.
Herm. I think, that he nevertheless clearly showed you with the holy Scriptures, that his faith is in Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God; whereby then could you show him, that his faith is bad, evil, wicked, false, and heretical, as you say?
Fr. Corn. Fie, alas! I already hear by this answer, that I shall win no laurels in the way of converting you. But in good faith, do you people think it enough, only to believe in Jesus Christ? Ali, bah, all the devils of hell believe in Jesus Christ; bah, see here now, what we are tormented with. Bah, you ought to, and must also, on pain of the damnation of your soul, believe in all the other articles of the Christian faith, and the excellent, holy institutions of our mother the holy Roman Church, which by our holy fathers, the popes, have in all general holy councils, been ordained and decreed to be believed and observed. But you Anabaptists neither believe nor observe anything of them, except it be very plainly stated in the holy Scriptures; for if there are any matters contained in the Scriptures, that seem somewhat obscure to you, you will by no means believe them; as, for instance, all that is contained in the holy Scriptures concerning prayer for the refreshing and deliverance of the souls in purgatory; nor all that is said in them respecting the seven sacraments; nor all that they say concerning priestly authority; nor all that is found in them regarding the transubstantiation, or change, of the bread and wine into the real flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, in the Sacrament of the altar; nor all that they contain concerning the perpetual virginity and purity of Mary, the blessed mother of God. No, these and very many other holy articles you will not believe; yea, what is still more abominable, the worthy blessed mother of God, whom you ought and are in duty bound to honor, serve, invoke, and entreat, that she would intercede for you with her dear Son, her you Ana-
baptists do not esteem better than your filthy, * ,* sinful wives. And in like manner you despise and reject all the holy saints and sainfesses whom you ought to honor, fast to them, celebrate, invoke,.and entreat; that they would stand as advocates or mediators between God and you, .and intercede, for you; bah! is this not a fine thing? Bah, you are silent: answer me, why you heretics bear such enmity and hatred to the worthy, blessed mother of God, and to 211 God's saints'; let us hear now.
Heym. That we should hate Mary the mother of Jesus Christ, and the saints of God; this be far from us; but that we do not invoke and entreat them that they should stand as advocates or .mediators between God, and us, this is because John, in the second chaptr of his first epistle .says, "If any man sin, we. have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world," In like manner, Paul writes to Timothy, in the second chapter of his first epistle, "There is one God, and one mediator 'between God and man, the roan Christ Jesus: who gave himself a ransom for all." In the same manner he also writes to the 'Hebrews; in the ninth chapter. But we do not hate our enemies; how then should we hate God's saints, our, fellow brethren and sisters in the Lord?
Fr. Corn. Indeed? if they are your fellow brethren and sisters in the Lord, why then do you bear such enmity and hatred to them, that you help burn or destroy their relics or bones; and break their images to pieces, wherever you have been able to get at them? is this not a fine brotherhood and sisterhood? accursed Anabaptists that -you are.
Herm. We do not meddle with your affairs; if you would leave us alone in our faith and in our walk and conversation, as we leave you alone, in your religion, and with your images, relics or dad men's bones, your hands would remain unstained with and innocent of our blood.- But you generation of Cain first killed the saints of God; and then take them to exalt and honor them with fasting and celebrating, and erect to,' them idolatrous images, which they themselves despised and rejected, and you honor their bones, as Christ says, Luke 11:47, "Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets: and your fathers killed them." Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build, their. sepulchres. Therefore also saith the wisdom' of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and' persecute: that the blood of all the prophets [which was shed from the foundation of the world], may 'be 'required of this generation; from the blood of Abel. Matt. 23.
Fr. Corn. Ah, bah! would you * * * 'accursed Anabaptists compare yourself to the prophets, apostles, and to' God's holy martyrs, popes and ~ iests, whose blood was shed for the Catholic, Christian faith, of which you Anabaptists are now such enemies, that you through the rejection of the sacrament of the priesthood reject, not only the six othei sacraments, and all our Christian ceremnies and acts of worship, but also all the articles of' the Christian, Catholic faith, as I have said;
therefore you are put to death; do you understand this, you uncouth, blockheaded Anabaptist that you are?
Herm. However uncouth and blockhead I am, I understand very well that you put us to death because we do not believe or observe these popish, or Romish, church articles, part of which you have mentioned. And you think that you do God service by killing us for it, as Christ says (John 16:2, 3), "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoe~er killeth you will think that. he doeth God service. And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me."
Fr. Corn. Bah l you bewitched and devil-possessed Anabaptists, would you also fain claim this for your side; would you? Bah, and would you charge and upbraid us priests and Catholics with such things, would you? Bah, and would you also say., that we priests know neither God nor His Son Jesus Christ, would you? Ah, bah! who knows God and Jesus Christ better than we Catholic priests? Hence this is all spoken concerning the Jewish priests, and concerning the Anabaptists; Calvinists, Lutherans, and other heretics, who in France and Spain in these lands and elsewhere, so tyrannically .persecute, trouble, torment, and martyrize us priests, because we have the true knowledge of God and Christ, see.
Herm: It is to _ be feared that Christ will not know you, though you think that you know Him so very well; for you are of so many different orders and rules. You are a Franciscan, the other an Augustinian, the other a Carmelite, the other a Jacobine or Dominican, the other a Benedictine; yea, innumerable are the orders and sects into which you are divided, and each has its special ceremonies and rules, according to which he must live, of which not a word is found in the teaching of Christ; how then shall lie know you!
Fr. Corn. Indeed? you hellish, devilish Anabaptist, though we are so diverse in regard to orders, rules and ceremonies, are we ecclesiastics not all comprehended in one sacrament of priesthood, eh?
Herin. Your sacrament of priesthood is nevertheless an article like all the other articles of your faith, of which nothing is found written in the holy Scriptures, hence I have no knowledge of, nor faith in it.
Fr. Corn. Ah, you accursed Anabaptist, answer me then, why God the Father should not be willing to know us, who are His priests, for do we not daily, in the mass, offer up His Son Jesus Christ, in flesh and blood? Bah, whom should they both know better than us, their priests? What will you say now, eh?
Herm. How shall I here tell you the secret of the
mass? I do not myself know it; but you know it very well.
Fr. Corn. Indeed? if you do not know the secret of the mass, how comes it then that you heretics undertake to describe such an accursed"Death-bed of the mass?" in which it says, that the mass, as it were, is lying sick of a putrid ulcer, which she has in her canon, and of which she will have to die. Bah! and do you accursed heretics then not know the secret of the mass, as you call it? Bah! may the devil skin you with the"Death-bed of the mass," accursed Anabaptists that you are.
Herm. We have not composed or written the book of the"Death-bed of the mass," and do you take it so ill that I speak of the secret of the mass? is it not a common saying, also among the papists when they are asked in regard to something which they do not wish to tell, they generally answer, "I do not want to tell the secret of the mass."
Fr. Corn. Bah! the devil and his mother have introduced this saying among the laity. I would that all who use it would sink together through the earth into the abyss of hell, that I would.
Recorder. O father Cornelis, the people say it without thinking any evil by it; I have frequently heard priests say it, and to confess the truth, I have often said it myself, without any evil thought or reflection.
Fr. Corn. Well, it is enough of it; but, you Anabaptist, answer me whether you believe, that the real flesh and blood of Christ Jesus are offered up by us priests in the mass, let us hear.
Herm. You must ask me concerning things that are contained in the holy Scriptures; for I have not studied your faith or religion.
Fr. Corn. Indeed? You crazy, bedeviled Anabaptist, and would you only be asked concerning things that are expressly contained in the holy Scriptures? Come on then, now I will soundly ask you in regard to things that are most clearly contained in the holy Scriptures. Bah! I have heard it said, that you have grown-up children running about at home, that are still unbaptized, nevertheless Christ, in the third chapter of John, says to Nicodemus, "Verily, verily, except every man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Bah, is this not something that is contained in the holy Scriptures, eh?
Herm. When the apostles, according to the command of Christ (Matt. 28), went and taught all nations to believe in Jesus Christ before they baptize them, did the converts to the faith, in the meantime, while they were being instructed, also go about unbaptized at home?
Fr. Corn. Bah, and if your children should die in the meantime, would they not go to the devil in hell, I suppose?
Herm. No, no more than the children or converts to the faith in the time of the apostles.
Fr. Corn. Ali, Bah! that was another thing; those children were circumcised, and thereby they were saved, though they died unbaptized; bah, here you are in a corner, happen what will, yes, yes, yes!
Herm. Those children were not all circumcised; for the faith in Jesus Christ was preached and taught also among the uncircumcised Gentiles; now I am out of the corner again.
Fr. Corn. Indeed? I shall put you in the corner again. Bah! as the children of the uncircumcised Gentiles, that died without baptism, went to the devil, so your children that die without baptism also go into eternal perdition; do you understand this?
Herm.. Our children that die before baptism certainly do not go into eternal perdition, any more than did the children of the Old Testament, that died uncircumcised before the eighth day.
Fr. Corn. Ah, bah! do you think that the children of the Old Testament, that died uncircumcised before the eighth day, are saved? bah, this were a fine thing.
Herm. Yes, this we think, without once doubting it, and I am surprised to hear you doubt it.
Fr. Corn. Bah, what do you make of the original sin then, which the children inherit from Adam and Eve, eh?
Herm. What do you make of the death of Christ? for John the Baptist said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, which beareth away the sin of the world." John 1:29.
Fr. Corn. Bah, Christ bears away all the sin of the world, as you Anabaptists understand, think and believe. Bah, who then shall be damned? no one, I suppose.
Herm. Christ says in the sixteenth chapter of Mark, "He that believeth not shall be damned;" but He nowhere says, "He that is not baptized (understand, in infancy) shall be damned."
Fr. Corn. Bah, here you lie with your vile, false, lying mouth; for did I not tell you, that in the third chapter of St. John it is written, that Christ said to Nicodemu's ."° erily, verily, except every man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God?" bah I here I have certainly cornered you, have I not, eh?
Herm. No; for. Christ there speaks of no external baptism, nor does He mention baptism; but He speaks of the regeneration which is performed by the Spirit of God, who is sometimes also called a water in the holy Scriptures. For thus says the Lord by the prophet Isaiah in the forty-fourth chapter (v. 3), "I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my Spirit upon thy seed." Again, by the prophet Ezekiel, in the thirty-sixth chapter (verses 25, 26), "I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: , from all your filthiness, and from x.11 your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart a so will I give you, and a new Spirit will I put within you." Again, in the thirty-ninth chapter (v. 29), the Lord says by Ezekiel, "I have poured out my Spirit upon the house of Israel." Again, by the prophet Joel, in the second chapter (v. 28):
Fr. Corn. Well, all this is done through the sacrament of baptism, when the children are baptized; for then the devil is exercised by the priest, and they are cleansed from the original sin, inherited from Adam and Eve, and they obtain a new heart and a new spirit; bah, thus does God pour or shed His Spirit upon all flesh; you will not cheat me out of this-you are cornered and remain cornered, see!
Herm. I tell you again, that Christ, when He talked with Nicodemus, meant such a regeneration as does not concern external baptism, nor does it children; but it concerns the true believers in Christ, who are begotten according to the will of God, by the word of truth, as James says in the first chapter. Again, Peter, in the first chapter of his first epistle, says, "See that you love one another with a pure heart fervently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever." Of similar Scriptures which do not concern little children or external baptism, there are more yet.
Fr. Corn. Bah, but if the regeneration of water and of the Spirit does not concern children, they must certainly and unmistakably go to the devil; for you acknowledge yourself, that he who does not believe will be damned. Bah, children do certainly not believe as you also say. And when they besides remain unbaptized, and die thus, they must surely be damned; for by what other way could they be saved, eh?
Herm. By the death of Christ, as I have told you. And Christ also says (Matt. 5:18, 19), that to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.
Fr. Corn.. Yes, these are the same arguments with which your hedge-preacher yesterday made my spleen run over. Bah, what does all this disputing and arguing amount to; if you would suffer yourself to be converted, you must be willing to be taught, and brought to the Catholic, Christian faith of our mother, the holy Roman church, and to her baptism and religion. Bah, why will you trust so much in the heresies of that damned arch-heretic, Menno Simons, and so firmly rely upon this bewitched hedge-preacher? Bah, why do you not believe me as well as that Menno Simons? for I am as learned, and have read as much, and certainly much more, as this * * * bishop, Jacob the weaver, and as a Dietrick Phillips, and an Ubbo Frisius, and such devil's brood, I suppose, eh?
Herm. I trust (or build) not upon Merino Simons, nor upon any man; for the propkiet Jeremiah says in his seventeenth chapter (v. 5), "Thus saith the Lord: Cursed, be the man that trusteth in man."
Fr. Corn. This is very true; in this you say very well, see; if you begin to talk like this, I feel quite hopeful, that I will convert you with the help of God, from this miserable Anabaptism. So I will first prevail upon you, to renounce the same, and to have your unbaptized children baptized in the Catholic church, by a priest, as a good Christian is in duty bound to do, see. Well, Herman, what think you of this, eh?
Herm. I do not think that you are the man that will convert me to your mother, the Roman church, or who will bring me to it, that I shall have my unbaptized children baptized in the papistic church.
Fr. Corn. Ali bah, how do you talk in this strain again; a thousand devils (God bless us), what has come over you? It seems, as though he would trust no longer in Menno Simons, nor in any other man; but as soon as I begin with kindness and friendliness to admonish him to renounce Anabaptism, and to have his unbaptized children baptized in our Catholic church, he instantly pipes another tune. Is this not a fine thing? If you will not be converted, and have your unbaptized children baptized in our church, after the Catholic rite, you can be burned alive at the stake, see.
Herm. This you papists could also do just as well, even if I turned from my faith, and had my unbaptized children baptized in your church.
Fr. Corn. Be sure, we could; but we would give you the sword. If you will suffer yourself to be converted with kindness. I insure you the sword, that I do.
Herm. For what purpose should you give me a sword? it would be of no use to me, for we use no swords.
Fr. Corn. Tush, tush, tush! you well understand what I mean by it: you would only be beheaded with the sword, see.
Herm. After I should have truly and unfeignedly confessed, that I had erred in the faith, and after I should have my unbaptized -children baptized in your church, would I then, according to your saying or meaning, not be a good, upright Christian?
Fr. Corn. Jesus, yes, Herman, and should you not in every manner, yes, you, faithful Herman, be as good a Christian as any one can be? This is what I like to hear, see.
Herm. And would you papists make no sin of it, to shed the blood of such a good, upright Christian?
Fr. Corn. Fie, tusk, tush, tush, bah, is it noth. ing else? You would have to die nevertheless, because of your having apostatized from the Catholic Christian faith, and having yourself rebaptized, see.
Herm. The shepherd of the hundred sheep, of whom Christ speaks in the fifteenth chapter of Luke, did nevertheless not cut the throat of the lost or strayed sheep, when He had found it; but He laid it upon His shoulders, and carried it home rejoicing.
Fr. Corn. Ali, bah! what is the use of all this raving and prating? if you want to be converted, be converted, and recant; what shall I say of this? Bah, I should sooner convert the devil in hell and his mother, than I could convert one of these ob-
durate, petrified Anabaptists; this I swear to you, that I do.
Herm. Therefore I said, that you are not the man who shall be able to prove to me from the holy Scriptures, that my faith, and my baptism, which I received upon confession of my faith in Jesus Christ, is evil; how then should you be able to convert me from it?
Fr. Corn. Indeed? but what devil in hell makes you people so presumptuous as that you have yourselves rebaptized, who have once been baptized? Show me once from the holy Scriptures, that a Christian that has once been baptized is to have himself rebaptized. Bah, I stake my neck, that you will not be able to show this to me with the holy Scriptures, see.
Herm. Alas! poor Friar Cornelis, you have already lost your neck; for in the nineteenth chapter of the Acts of the Apostles it is written, "And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus; and finding certain disciples, he said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." Now, poor Friar Cornelis, here you lose your neck.
Fr. Corn. Enough, ah, bah, if they had been rightly baptized. Paul would not have caused them to be rebaptized. No, I have not yet lost my neck, that I have not.
Herm. Well then, I answer the same; if I had been rightly baptized, I would also not have had myself rebaptized. But now you can well hear, that you have unjustly so often called me an accursed Anabaptist.
Fr. Corn. But you were certainly very well baptized; for the priest had baptized you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. And afterwards, only six or seven years ago, you had yourself baptized again; are you therefore not an accursed, damned Anabaptist, eh?
Herm. I was not baptized upon my faith in Jesus Christ, but in my unbelief; and when I heard and understood this, I had myself baptized upon my faith, as Christ Himself has said in the sixteenth chapter of Mark, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." Am I therefore an accursed, damned Anabaptist?
Fr. Corn. Yes, you are and remain a damned, accursed Anabaptist, if you do not become converted. For St. Paul says, that there is but one God, one faith, and one baptism; is it not Anabaptism then, to have one's self rebaptized?
Herm. For this reason you papists are justly (according to your saying) called Anabaptists by the Calvinists, because you have rebaptized in your churches their children, that had been baptized once out here in their preaching.
Fr. Corn. O you awkward, block-headed Anabaptist, those children were not rightly baptized, and you know yourself well enough how to prove from the nineteenth chapter of the Acts of the Apostles, that St. Paul caused those who had not been rightly baptized under John's baptism to be rebaptized. Bah, are we Catholics Anabaptists? I suppose so, * * * What shall I say now, does it now become fool's work altogether with the sacrament of baptism-see wherewith we are now tormented and vexed; would you accursed Anabaptist now begin to call us Catholics Anabaptists? Bah!
Herm. I do not call you Anabaptists; for I only say, that the Calvinists call you Anabaptists, because you rebaptize their children, which they had once baptized.
Fr. Corn.* * * (He spoke here only vile words of abuse.)
Herm. Our baptism is nevertheless administered according to the institution of Christ; for in our church the believing are baptized, but you baptize the unbelieving.
Fr. Corn. Bah, the sponsors believe in behalf of the children, until they are old enough to believe themselves, do you understand this?
Herm. No; I find nothing said in the Scriptures, about sponsors, nor about one man believing in behalf of another.
Fr. Corn. Bah, now you are clearly cornered; for does not St. Luke say in the fifth chapter, that Christ saw the faith of the bearers who let down the man afflicted with the palsy, through the roof with his couch, and that He therefore healed him and forgave his sins, eh? Bah, here for once I have clearly cornered you; get out if you can. Now you have spectacles on your nose, have you not, eh?
Herm. No; for from this it is not to be understood, that the man afflicted with the palsy did not himself believe, or was without faith, as are the children which you baptize.
Fr. Corn. Bah, the old fathers or teachers of our mother, the holy Roman Catholic church do nevertheless understand, that the bearers of the man afflicted with the palsy signify the sponsors, who hold the children when they are being baptized, and believe in behalf of the children, till these are old enough. to believe for themselves; for to this end the sacrament of confirmation is instituted, to put the children, when they are old enough to believe themselves, in remembrance that they were baptized. Bah, I could very well show you this from the ancient fathers, but you Anabaptists will rely most firmly on the holy Scriptures alone, so that you will not once hearken to the ancient fathers or teachers of the holy church. Bah, it seems, as the provincial of the Augustinians tells me, that, when
one begins to mention something to you from St. Jerome, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. Gregory, or some other ancient fathers, that you people carry on in just such a crazy and ugly manner, as though one began to speak to you of the very devil -is this not a fine thing?
Herm. Because we wish to be only Christians, therefore we do not want to hearken to the teachings of the ancient fathers; for they describe popery, as of sponsors, of the sacrament of confirmation, and the whole popery which you follow and observe:
Fr. Corn. O you damned, accursed Anabaptist, do you call the sacrament of confirmation popery?
Herm. What else is it then? for I have never read in the holy Scriptures of the sacrament of confirmation.
Fr. Corn. Bah, and are so dull, awkward and block-headed, that you do not understand it, though you read of it; for confirmation means the imposition of hands, see.
Herm. Ah, does it mean this? pardon me, that through my awkwardness and dullness I do not understand such very high and fine Latin.
Fr. Corn. Ah, bah, did I say it is Latin, see here.
Herm. What language is it then? I certainly would like to know.
Fr. Corn. Bah, that I do not know myself; but we Catholics understand it by the word confirmation, the sacrament of confirmation, or the laying on of the hands of the bishop, when our bishops and suffragans confirm grown-up children or adults, as also the apostles did; hence it is that I say, that you sectarians read of many holy sacramental things in the Scriptures, which you do not understand, and therefore you do not know our sacrament of confirmation, that you do not.
Herm. If your bishops or suffragans by such confirmation and laying on of hands could give to the grown-up children and adults the Holy Ghost, and that they spake with tongues, and prophesied as did the apostles, and also those upon whom they laid their hands, then I should very well understand and know your confirmation.
Fr. Corn. Bah, there had to be miracles then, when the people did not believe yet, in order that they might believe the apostles; do you understand this, you stupid Anabaptist?
Herm. If Christ had commanded you to imitate such laying on of hands, He would also do those miracles though you. Hence, when your bishops do such miracles with their confirmation and imposition of hands, then I shall believe you too.
Fr. Corn. Tush, tush, tush, these are the same arguments and chatterings which also your accursed hedge-preacher advanced yesterday against the sacrament of confirmation, and the sacrament of extreme unction. Bah, though Christ Himself did not command us to imitate it, the apostles commanded us to do it; for does not St. James, in the fifth chapter, command that when any one is sick, he priests of the church are to be sent for, to pray over him, and to anoint him with oil, eh?
Herm. The oil of which James writes must have been another oil than your oil; for with that the sick were anointed, that they should recover from their sickness, and they did recover from it. But you priests do the very opposite; for if you knew beforehand, that the sick should recover, and not die, you would not anoint them with oil; for you anoint no sick persons with oil except those who you think will die.
Fr. Corn. Bah, my lords, did I not well know, that it would be the same thing which it was yesterday with their hedge-preacher? Bah, I lay you a wager, that if I begin to prove to him, from the same fifth chapter of St. James, the sacrament of confession, he will also say, as his hedge-preacher said yesterday, that I also ought to confess my sins to him; just see, with what we are tormented and vexed.
Herm. Did this seem to you so strange an answer from him? for it is nevertheless written, "Confess your sins one to another.." But when you priests learn from people all that you wish to know, then you let them go, and do not yourselves confess to them who have confessed (as you call it) their sins to you.
Fr. Corn. Yes, we call it confession, and it is confession, and shall remain confession, in spite of your teeth. Ah, bah, would it not be a fine thing, if we priests also had to kneel down and confess ourselves to the laity; and would they have the power to absolve us from sin? I suppose so. Bah, what a fine absolution that would be! Bah, and if I here confess myself to you, would you be so presumptuous as to think that you have power to loose or forgive my sins, eh?
Herm. Such power as you or all priests have to forgive sin, all men have; for Christ says, Mark 11:25, "Forgive, if ye have aught against any
that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses." Again, Luke 6:37, "Forgive, and ye shall be forgiven."
Fr. Corn. O you accursed Anabaptist, have you laymen priestly authority to forgive sin in confession? .Bah, the forgiveness of sin of which Christ speaks, Mark 11; Luke 6, does not concern confession or absolution. * * * Bah, we priests have in the sacrament of confession and absolution a special priestly authority to forgive and to retain sin, that we do.
Herm. Whence do you priests get a special authority to forgive sin, more than we, whom you call laymen?
Fr. Corn. Bah, this special authority which Christ delivered to His vicar, St. Peter, and St. Peter left it to his vicars the popes, and the popes impart to us of that power, because they cannot themselves in person everywhere hear confession, and absolve, see.
Herm. That the popes and you priests have the special power to forgive and to retain sin, which
Christ gave to Peter, this you will not be able to show to me with the holy Scriptures.
Fr. Corn. Indeed? O you accursed Anabaptist, the executioner will be able very well to show it to you, by kindling a good fire * * * and the very devils in hell will also show it to you with burning pitch, brimstone, and tar .in the fire of hell; this I swear to you, that I do.
Herm. You papists can demonstrate your faith, doctrine and religion with nothing better than with the executioner, and with sword, fire, rope and gallows; for these are the best demonstrations or proofs which you have, and thus your forefathers demonstrated their faith and doctrine to God's prophets, to Christ, to His apostles, and to the saints of God, from the blood of Abel until now.
Fr. Corn. Ha, you hellish, devilish, damned, accursed Anabaptists, for what do you take our holy fathers the popes and us priests? may thunder and lightning kill, burn and pulverize you. Bah, that I should thus excite, exasperate and disquiet myself for such an accursed Anabaptist.
Clerk of the criminal court. Tush, tush, Father Cornelis, and Herman, speak gently with each other.
Fr. Corn. Yes indeed, be gentle towards such bedeviled, bewitched, heretics, who do not believe anything. In good faith, do you Anabaptists then go thus unconfessed and unabsolved to your supper? I suppose so; for,you regard it but as a bit of simple common bread, and a little draught of com, mon, flat wine. The transubstantiation in the sacrament of the altar with you is only popery, .yea, sorcery, and we priests are regarded as sorcerers by you, because we adjure and conjure the true flesh and blood of Christ in the host and in the cup, as you Sacramentarians say, ill betide you.
Herm. Such confession, or absolution, or sacrament of the altar we do not use in our church, but we observe such forgiveness of sins, as Christ commands us, Mark 11; and Luke 6, and such breaking of bread, and distribution of the cup, as He in His last supper commands us to do for His remembrance.
Fr. Corn. Bah, but with that forgiveness of sins Christ means this when your neighbor has done aught amiss to you; but I ask concerning the sins which you people have sinned against God whether you go with these unconfessed and unabsolved to your devil's supper, eh?
Herm. We pray as Christ has taught us, Matthew 6:12."Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors." And we use no devil's supper.
Fr. Corn. Your breaking of bread, and distribution of the cup is the devil's supper of which Paul writes in the tenth chapter of his first epistle to the Corinthians, "Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils; ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils: But the cup of blessing which we bless," that is, we Catholics,"is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion.of the body of Christ?" Bah, and is your bit of bread, and your cup with a little draught of flat wine not a devil's supper? for you sacramentarians do not bless your cup, nor do you consecrate your bit of bread, but it is wine and bread, and remains wine and bread; bah, let us hear what you can answer against this, that will be conclusive.
Herm. In regard to this, I must ask you, whether you yourself believe, that Christ in His last supper meant no other body or flesh, and no other blood, than that which was to be broken and shed on the cross for the remission of sins.
Fr. Corn. Ah, bah; and should I not believe this? this is quite Catholic, that it is.
Herm. Well you will certainly also confess, I think, that the bread which the apostles le at the supper was not crucified.
Fr: Corn. Bah, what hellish, devilish, heretical question is this; never in all the days of my life did I hear such a deep question. Bah, I believe and know very well, that the apostles ate the same body or flesh of Jesus Christ, which the day after the supper was to be crucified, see.
Herm. Therefore, poor man, you do not understand the sense or meaning of Christ, though Paul in the tenth chapter of the first epistle to the Corinthians very clearly explains the same, saying, "Behold Israel after the flesh; are not they which eat of the sacrifice partakers of the altar?" Thus also are we in the eating of the bread, and in the drinking .of the wine, partakers of the body and blood of Christ.
Fr. Corn: Bah, you accursed Sacramentarian, would you compare the flesh of God to the rotten flesh of oxen, and the lousy flesh of sheep, and to the, rotten, putrid flesh of goats and other beasts and carrions? * * * Bah, fie, what abominable and horrible heresy is this?
Herm. You understand neither Paul nor me; for what I say is this, that Paul by this comparison of the sacrifices of the altar (which the Jews ate, and thereby became partakers of the sacrifice in the remission of sins) explains and expounds the communion or participation of the broken bread and of the cup of wine (which we eat and drink in remembrance of the body and blood of Christ), that we thus also become partakers in the washing from sins through the body and blood of Christ, which He offered up for the sins of the world.
Fr. Corn. Ah, bah, see, now I plainly understand your heretical, Sacramentarian meaning, that you only make comparisons and memorials of the flesh and blood of Christ. Eh, accursed Anabaptist, why then does St. Paul say, in the eleventh chapter of his first epistle to the Corinthians, "Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment
to himself, not discerning the Lord's body." Bah, answer me once to this, you accursed Sacramentarian, that you are.
Herm. In the tenth chapter of the first epistle to the Corinthians Paul writes, "We being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread." Again in the twelfth chapter, "We are all members of one body." If we then are members of one body, unto which Christ has united us together by His baptism and by His Spirit, no external sign can be fitter, to show or signify the union of one body, than that in the breaking of bread we all become partakers of one bread, in token that we being many are one bread and body. Likewise it is also with the wine; for as many grains are ground together, and made into one bread, so of many grapes one drink is made. Therefore let every one examine himself, whether he be worthy of the communion of the bread and of the cup of the Lord, and whether he love his fellow brother with a pure heart: for if he hates his brother, and does not love him, and would besides make himself a partaker yet of the bread and of the cup of the Lord as though he were a member of Christ, he shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, and shall eat judgment to himself, not discerning, that the body of the Lord is signified by this communion or participation, that we are members of one body, into which Christ has united us.
Fr. Corn. Tush, tush, tush I it seems that you also could preach a little sermon in the Gruthuysbosch. Bah, this people know nothing else to do but to preach; but you would have to preach a long time to me, before I would believe that a man will eat and drink judgment to himself on a bit of common bread, and a little draught of wine, by which you Sacramentarians would only signify the body and blood of Christ. Bah, I would rather believe that God's name is Henry, that I would.
Herm. What greater importance was there in the sacrifices of the Jews, of sheep and doves, than in the bread and wine, which are all types of the true sacrifice which Christ made on the cross in His own flesh and blood? And if the Jews had nevertheless, according to the command of Christ, to lay down their offering before the altar, and first go and become reconciled to their brother, before they were to offer, then a Christian also ought first to examine himself, before he partakes of the bread and .the cup of the Lord.
Fr. Corn. Bah, a thousand devils, God bless us, if the bread and the wine are only types of the true sacrifice of the flesh and blood of Christ on the cross why then does He say in the sixth chapter of John, "The bread that I will give is my flesh;" again, "My flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed; therefore he that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, shall live forever," eh?
Herm. This argument is against yourself, for you would say that the bread is therefore the body of Christ, and the wine His blood, because Paul says, that whosoever eats and drinks it unworthily eats and drinks judgment to himself. And here Christ says, "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, shall live forever." If therefore that bread and wine of which Paul writes, were the flesh and blood of Christ, no one could therein eat judgment to himself.
Fr. Corn. Bah, this accursed Sacramentarian would torment and pester us here, I suppose, with all these abominable blasphemies against God's true body and blood. Bah, the very devil of hell sits in his accursed mouth.
Herm. I have not mentioned one word about the body and blood of God; how then can I have blasphemed there against?
Fr. Corn. O you accursed Anabaptist and Sacramentarian, are the body and blood of Christ not also the body and blood of God? are God the Father and the Son of God not one God, or would you make two Gods of them. Bah, are you also a Trinitarian, I suppose, eh?
Herm. Yet you said, when you wanted to dispute about the mass, that you priests daily in the
mass, offer up to God His Son Jesus Christ; hence you make a distinction between God and the body of His Son, which you now begin to call the flesh and body of God.
Fr. Corn. Bah, the devil and 'his mother wag your tongue. You would now like to bite into my trap, would you? Ali, you wicked, vile, false, crafty Anabaptist and Sacramentarian, yea, also Trinitarian, because you speak so abominably of the holy Trinity, do you then not believe, that Christ is the second person in the Godhead of the holy Trinity? Bah, it seems not from your speaking.
Herm. We only know to speak of things that are mentioned in the holy Scriptures.
Fr. Corn. O you Trinitarian, do we not read in the holy Scriptures of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of God the Holy Ghost, eh?
Herm. Yet the holy Scriptures speak of only one God, and of the Son of the living God, and of the Holy Ghost.
Fr. Corn. Indeed? you accursed Trinitarian; if you would read the symbol* of Athanasius, you would read of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of God the Holy Ghost, which three persons are therein called one true God, of whom the Father is the first person in the Godhead; the Son is the second person in the Godhead, and the Holy Ghost is the third person in the Godhead; and these three persons constitute the holy Trinity, that they do. Do you understand now, you Trinitarian, eh?
Herm. I have not studied the symbol of Athanasius; for it is enough for me, that I believe in the living God, and that Christ is the Son of the living God, as Peter believed (Matt. 16), and in the Holy Ghost, which is shed on us abundantly through
Jesus Christ our Saviour, as Paul writes in the third chapter of his epistle to Titus.
Fr. Corn. Indeed? you are certainly fine fellows, that God should shed His Holy Spirit upon you who will not believe that the Holy Ghost is also God Himself. But this heresy you pick up and study in the devilish books of that accursed Erasmus of Rotterdam, who in his preface to the books of St. Hilary writes, that St. Hilary, at the end of his twelfth book, says, that the Holy Ghost is nowhere in the holy Scriptures called God, but that we have become so presumptuous as to dare call the Holy Ghost God, which the ancient teachers of the church did not dare do. In like manner this wicked Erasmus is also a great enemy of the divinity of Christ. Ah, bah I would you follow this damned Trinitarian, eh?
Herm. We follow neither Erasmus nor Hilary, but we follow the holy Scriptures, as Hilary and Erasmus herein do.
Fr. Corn. Though the holy Scriptures nowhere call the Holy Spirit God, what matters it? The Holy Ghost Himself has inspired our mother the holy Roman Catholic church, to call Him God, as appears from the symbol of Athanasius, see. But in good faith, if you believe the holy Scriptures, why then will you not believe in the divinity of Christ, eh?
Herm. That be far from us, that we should not believe in the divinity of Christ, that He is divine and heavenly, and not earthly, as you people believe; therefore we are put to death by you.
Fr. Corn. * * * Bah, we put you to death, because you people will not believe, that Christ assumed the seed of Mary His blessed mother, see.
Herm. We believe that the Word became flesh, as John writes in the first chapter of his Gospel.
Fr. Corn. Bah, now I have got you well cornered; for God was the Word. And if God became flesh, why then would you bite into my trap, because I say, God's flesh, God's body, and God's blood, eh?
Herm. We too believe that God was the Word; but would you then therefrom understand, that the living God (of whom Christ is the Son) became Himself flesh? this were certainly contrary to the entire holy Scriptures.
Fr. Corn. Yet Christ says, John 10:30, "1 and my Father are one." Again, John 14:9, "He that bath seen me bath seen the Father." Bah, where are you now, eh?
Herm. Christ also says (John 17:21-23), "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one." Again (Acts 4:32), "The multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul." Again, Paul to the Galatians (3:8) says, "For ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Again (Ephe sians 5:31, 32), "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery."
Fr. Corn. Tush, tush, you have preached enough; for all this you have drawn from the venomous breasts of Erasmus. But answer me, why Christ says, "He that bath seen me bath seen the Father," see.
Herm. Christ also says, John 6:46, "Not that any man bath seen the Father, save he which is of the Father, he bath seen the Father." Again, John 1:18, "No man bath seen God at any time." Again, John 14:28, "For my Father is greater than I." Again, Mark 13:32, "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." From this it is sufficiently shown that the Father Himself did not become flesh.
Fr. Corn. Bah, this you need not teach me; for I say myself that Christ, the second person in the Godhead, or of the holy Trinity, became man, whom you will not call God; do you understand this, you accursed Trinitarian that you are?
Herm. I call Him the Son of the living God, as Peter called Him. (Matt. 16:16), and Lord, as the apostles call Him.
Fr. Corn. O you accursed Trinitarian, I could jump out of my skin for anger, that I could.
Herm. Then you must jump out of your skin, when in the second chapter of the Acts of the apostles (verse 22), you read that Peter calls Him but a man of God, saying, "Jesus of Nazareth, a man* approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him." Again, in the same chapter (verse 32), "This Jesus bath God raised up." Again, in the third chapter (verse 15)"Whom God bath raised from the dead." Again in Acts 4:10, "Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead." Again, Paul (Acts 17:31) says, "Because he bath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he bath ordained; whereof he bath given assurance unto all men, in that he bath raised him from the dead."
Fr. Corn. Yes, yes, tush, tush, tush, bah I these are the same arguments which this damned Erasmus prefers, in his book, de modo orandi, and in Apologia ad Episcopum Hispalensem, Alphonsum Mauracum. But you Trinitarian, if you will call Christ only the Son of God, you do not esteem Him better than Adam; for Luke says in his third chapter, that Adam also was the son of God. Bah! see once, with what we are tormented.
Herm. That be far from us, that we should not esteem Christ better than Adam; for because we believe, that the body of Christ is not earthy of the earth, as was Adam the first man, but that He is a heavenly man, as Paul writes in the fifteenth chapter of his first epistle to the Corinthians; therefore
we are put to death by you; hence you yourselves do not esteem Him better than Adarii.
Fr. Corn. O you accursed Trinitarian, how the devil does wag your tongue. Bah, if you, will not. believe, that Christ is truly man; and if you will also not believe that He is the true God, what * * * is He then?
Herm. Do not talk so unbecomingly; for 'Christ is no devil; but He is the true Son of God, 'as John writes in the fifth chapter of his first epistle; and He is also a true man; as Paul writes in the fifth chapter of his epistle to the Romans.
Fr. Corn. Bah, but does not St. John in the same chapter say of the Son, "This is the true, God;" eh?
Herm. No, for John says, "We know that .the Son of God is come, and hath given us an under standing, that we may know the true God, and that we should be in his true Son. 'This is the true God, and eternal life." Hereby John means this true God whom the Son taught us to know:
Fr. Corn. Bah, you Trinitarian; now it occurs to me that St. John says in the same chapter, "There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one." Bah, here you are, soundly cornered, poor Trinitarian that you are.
Herm. I have often heard it said; that Erasmus in his Annotations charges you papists with having interpolated these words, and that they are not contained in the Greek text, even as you people have taken out and added many other things' in the holy Scriptures.
Fr. Corn. Bah, may the fire of hell forever burn and torment you with your devilish, damned, accursed heretic Erasmus. Bah, I 'could tear my cap for anger; that I could:
Herm. Why then do you not tear, your cap, when you read that Greek text yourslf; and' see that this is not contained in it?
Fr. Corn. Bah, my lords, what do you think of this-am I wrong in so sharply attacking in my sermons this damned heretic, , this wicked Trinitarian Erasmus? For it is true, this he writes; yea, what is still worse, in his Annotations to the fourth chapter of St. Luke he has written.; that a very great and strange corruption has been wrought:in the holy Scriptures in the Greek and Latin copies, that sometimes something is added and interpolated and sometimes something taken away, omitted, and erased, on account of the heretics; yea, that the marginal notes which were now and then written by one or the other have all been foisted into the text, my lords, is it not a fine thing?
Recorder. Ali, Father Cornelis, we are no theologians; we do not understand these things.
Fr. Corn. Indeed? Bah, I believe it; but this Trinitarian would certainly understand it very well, as you hear, that he charges us with it. Bah, he would dare charge us Catholics with his archheretic, this wicked Erasmus, that in the ,ninth chapter of Romans, where Paul says, "Whose are he fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came;" we' have interpolated, "Who is over all, God blessed forever: Amen." For this accursed .Erasmus writes, that he has great doubts with regard to this clause, "Oui est benedictus in saecula. Amen." Or these words are to be interpretedand understood- as a thanksgiving to God the Father; thus,"Christ, etc., who is over ail. God be blessed for ever. Amen.""Otherwise," he writes;"I have great doubts; whether this clause has not been interpolated, as I find also in some other texts, that they have added similar clauses, for .the conclusion of discourses, as, Tu autem Domine; etc.; Gloria Patri et Filio, etc., as their lessons and prayers are all concluded with such clauses." But as regards the words of St. Thomas, in the twentieth chapter of St. John's gospel, you have no way of escape; for there St. Thomas said to Christ, "My Lord and my God." Bah, to this he does not reply, yea, with this he is soundly cornered- nevertheless, he spitefully writes with regard to this, "This is the first and last passage in the Scriptures, where Christ is called God." Bah, but you Trinitarian, let us hear what you can say to this.
Herm. I reply to this, that Thomas said very well here; for David says in the eighty-second Psalm, "I have said, Ye are gods'; and all of you are children. of the Most High." Christ Himself also quotes these words in the tenth chapter of John. When the Jews took up stones to stone Him, because He had said,"I and the Fattier are one," esus answered them, "Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do you stone me?' The Jews answered him, saying: For a good work we stone thee not; but for'blaspherny; and because that thou, being a man, iiiakest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods. If he called.them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken; say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, thou blasphemest;. because I said, I am the son of God?" Again, Ex. 22:8, 9, "If the thief, be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the gods, etc. The cause of both parties shall come before the gods; and whom the gods. shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbor."
Fr. Corn. Bah, but tell me without many words, why Christ did not say to St. Thomas, "Stay: I am not your God?" let us hear.
Herm. In regard to this my previous answer, John 10; David in Ps. 82 will serve; but answer
Te why Christ did not reply to these words of homas, " Vpon this rock I will build my church," as He .said, .1Vlatt. 16:18, when Peter answered Him, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God?" He also did not say to Thomas, "Flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which i's in heaven." Why also does Christ, John 20:17; say to His disciples, "I ascend unto my Fa-
ther and your Father; and to my God, and your God? Again, Matt. 27:46, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
Fr. Corn. Tush, tush, you Trinitarian. Bah, from this would probably follow diabolical arguments which would transcend all human comprehension. Ah, bah, is Christ not truly God? why then do we call His blessed mother the mother of God, eh?
Herm. Because you will nowhere follow the holy Scriptures, but would call everything by a contrary and different name; for the holy Scriptures call her the mother of Jesus, as in the first chapter of the Acts of the Apostles, in the nineteenth chapter of John, and in many other places of holy Scripture, where she is not once called the mother of God.
Fr. Corn. Indeed? Bah, do you think that we Catholics pay so much regard to the naked, bare, meagre Scriptures? Ah, bah, the worthy, holy council of Nice has ordained and decreed that she should be called the mother of God. What do you say to this?
Herm. Do you not hold the last council of Trent to be of as great authenticity, dignity, and holiness as the council of Nice?
Fr. Corn. Yea, in troth, and should we not? Ah, bah, the Holy Ghost taught and spoke just as well through the fathers in the worthy council of Trent, as though the fathers in the council of Nice. Bah, what need is there of asking this question? have you nothing else to ask me? Bah, I well perceive that you would fain drop the subject concerning the mother of God.
Herm. I had to ask this in order to hear your confession in regard to it; for now I know by the council of Trent all the other councils, because I have in my time heard and seen how things went at the former council, which mocks and puts to shame all previous councils.
Fr. Corn. O you hellish, devilish, accursed Trinitarian, you blaspheme the Holy Ghost. It is a wonder that we do not all together with you sink into the earth. My lords, I am absolutely afraid to speak any longer with this Beelzebubian Anabaptist, Sacramentarian and Trinitarian, and enemy of the mother of God, that I am.
Recorder. Can you not keep still in regard to these things, Herman, as we requested of you?
Herm. I do not blaspheme the Holy Ghost, nor am I an enemy of the mother of Christ.
Fr. Corn. Bah, do you not blaspheme the Holy Ghost, when you ridicule, villify and deride the worthy council of Trent, and all the previous holy councils? and will not call the worthy, holy, blessed virgin Mary the mother of God, as the holy council of Nice teaches and commands us to do? Bah, are you not then a blasphemer of the Holy Ghost, and an enemy of the mother of God eh?
Herm. You papfists were so presumptuous in your council of Nice, that you dared call the mother of Jesus Christ the mother of God, whom neither the apostles nor the evangelists dared call the mother of the Son of God.
Fr. Corn. O you damned, devilish Anabaptist. you hellish Trinitarian, Sacramentarian and deadly enemy of the blessed mother of God, we will call her the mother of God in spite of your teeth, and she is too the mother of God. Yea, she is the mother of God, that she is?
Herm. You said yourself that there are three persons in the holy Trinity, the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, and that these three persons are but one true God. If Mary then is the mother of this true God, then she is just as well the mother of the Father and of the Holy Ghost, and of the Son.
Fr. Corn. O you devilish heretic, I have proved to you from the symbol of Athanasius, that the Father is God, and that the Son is God, and that the Holy Ghost is God, and that there are nevertheless not three gods, but that these three are one true, inseparable God, see.
Herm. If these three are not each a distinct, separate God, but if the three are but one true inseparable God, and if Mary is the mother'of God, then she must be the mother of all three, or the three must each be a separate God. Where are you now with your council of Nice?
Fr. Corn. Bah, may the fire of hell burn you, you wicked, evil, vile, false, crafty Trinitarian; the devil wags your accursed tongue. Bah, you would drive an hundred thousand doctors of divinity mad and crazy. Jesus, Jesus, worthy mother of God, how you are reviled, despised and rejected by this hellish devil's brood. But in good faith, how would you have her called-Maeyken Timmermans,* as you call her in your hellish, devilish sermons in the Gruthuysbosch, eh?
Herm. We call her the mother of Jesus, as she is called in the Scriptures, And how can you say that we revile, despise and reject her?
Fr. Corn. O you accursed Anabaptist, I will drop this, that you will not call her the mother of God; but is this not odious reviling, despising and rejecting, that your arch-heretic, Menno Simons writes, that Christ did not assume the sinful earthly seed of Mary, but that He came with flesh and blood, with skin and hair, from heaven, into Mary, and thus became man, and that He merely passed through her body, as water through a sieve, or through a spout; bah, is this not reviling, blaspheming, despising and rejecting?
Herm. You do not understand what Menno Simons writes; for what you here say, cannot be found in his writings; but he shows with many Scriptures, that the Word became flesh (as John writes in his first chapter), and not the seed of Mary.
Fr. Corn. Ah, bah,. was Christ then not born of the seed of David according to the promise; which seed He assumed in the blessed virgin Mary,
Probably an allusion to the fact that Mary's husband Joseph was a carpenter.
of her most pure blood, and of that became flesh and man, eh?
Herm. That Christ was born of the seed of David (as regards the generation of which He was born) we well believe; but the angel said to Joseph, "That which is begotten in her is of the Holy Ghost," Matt. 1:20. Again, John 16:28, Christ Himself says, "I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world."
Fr. Corn. Ah, bah, Christ says this of His divinity, that the same proceeded, and came into the world from the Father, and not from His humanity, you stupid Anabaptist.
Herm. Why then did Christ say, John 6:62, "What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" Again, John 3:13, "No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man." Again, Paul says, Eph. 4:9, 10, "That he ascended; what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens."
Fr. Corn. Bah, you stupid Anabaptist, did Christ then come from heaven into Mary with flesh and blood, with skin and hair, entrails and all, as He ascended up to heaven? Bah, what do you say of this, you great, stupid, awkward ass?
Herm. I do not say this; but I say that the Word came from heaven, and became flesh in Mary, as John writes in his first chapter.
Fr. Corn. And we Catholics say that the most pure blood of Mary became flesh, in spite of your miserable teeth, see.
Herm. This defiance to my teeth is a small matter; but this defiance to the holy Scriptures is a great blasphemy.
Fr. Corn. Ha, you damned Anabaptist, I do,not blaspheme the holy Scriptures; but you revile the holy, blessed, pure virgin Mary. Bah, I am surprised that you do not say, that she conceived her son Christ of her husband Joseph, as your hedgepreachers preach in the Gruthuysbosch; is it not a fine thing?
Herm. You wrong us greatly, that you say this of us; for we believe as Matthew writes in his first chapter, "Joseph took his wife, and knew her not till she had brought forth her first born son."
Fr. Corn. Ah, bah! did Joseph know her afterwards, eh?
Herm. It matters not to me whether he knew her afterwards, or not.
Fr. Corn. Indeed? and do you then not believe in the perpetual virginity:of the blessed virgin Mary? let us hear now.
Herm. We find nothing said in the Scriptures, concerning her perpetual virginity.
Fr. Corn. Bah, this accursed Anabaptist would pester me with the Scriptures. Will you then positively believe nothing else but what is contained in the holy Scriptures? Bah, hence it comes that you hus despise, reject and revile the worthy mother of God and imagine, yea, teach and believe that she did the carnal works of the married state with Joseph her husband, just as well as your filthy, sinful wives do, with you, and that she had many children by Joseph her husband; hah, is this not a fine thing?
Herm. And if she had done the work of the married state with her husband Joseph, and brought forth more children (which is ordained and commanded of God, Gen. 1, and is a blessing) would she thereby have sinned?
Fr. Corn. Bah, God blessed Adam and Eve, and said, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth," before they transgressed the commandment; but they did not continue in ~h~e blessing but transgressed the commandment of God, and thereby the work of marriage became sin to them; bah, now you are cornered.
Herm. You are cornered yourself; for, Gen. 9: 1, it is written, "God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them: Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth." Again, the prophet Jeremiah, in the twenty-ninth chapter, says, "Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: Take ye wives, and beget sons and daughters; and take wives for your sons, and give your daughters to husbands, that they may bear sons and daughters; that ye may be increased."
Fr. Corn. Bah, tush, tush, you have talked enough; bah, hear how much talk there is in this miserable Anabaptist. Bah, now that I hear you talk, I will believe, that you Anabaptists undisguisedly and presumptuously preach out there in the Gruthuysbosch, that Maeyken Timmermans, as regards the work of marriage, was not a hair better than your filthy, unchaste, carnal wives area Yea, in order utterly to loose the marriage bond, and to show, that women may have divers husbands, you wicked Anabaptists dare preach and teach that Mary had children of many different husbands, like your wives, whom you have in common-is this not a fine thing?
Herm. Of such things as you here say I never heard our teachers speak once, when they preached the Word; but it may sometimes have been asked among us, whether the brethren and sisters of Christ, of whom the holy Scriptures make mention, Matthew 13; Mark 6, etc., were natural children by Joseph or Mary.
Fr. Corn. O you accursed Anabaptist, the holy Scriptures call some apostles, as St. James, St. Simon, St. Judas, the Lord's brethren, who were merely His cousins, you stupid Anabaptists that you are.
Herm. Yet, in the first chapter of Acts it is written (after the eleven apostles are enumerated), "These all continued with one accord in prayer [and supplication], with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren." Nevertheless, I will not insist upon, or maintain, that
Mary the mother of Jesus gave birth yet to other children.
Fr. Corn. Bah, but when you Anabaptists are assembled in the Gruthuysbosch, you will maintain it, and other things yet concerning her, which are still much more wicked and abominable; for I know it well, that I do.
Herm. We are greatly slandered, even as also you often stand in your pulpit and preach about us all that you please.
Fr. Corn. Indeed, do then any Anabaptists sometimes come to hear me preach, eh?
Herm. Though we do not hear you preach ourselves, yet we are told, that you stand in your pulpit and preach, that the Calvinists and Anabaptists teach and preach, that Mary the mother of Christ was a filthy whore, for which you are censured by learned men (in letters which they write to you), how you slander us thereby.
Fr. Corn. Bah, * * * you miserable Anabaptist * * * for such * * * letters I do not care, do you understand this? And do you know nothing else to say? Bah, you do not answer me in regard to having the women in common: bah, you Anabaptists have certainly gone about it very cunningly, that you have the women and maidens in common; for thereby you gain such a great number of adherents for your Anabaptism. Bah, but show me once from the Scriptures, that the women and maidens are to be had in common, as you Anabaptists do in your devil's supper;--bah, see; let us hear, whether you will be able to show me this.
Herm. No; for this I could show to you just as little, as you can show to me from the holy Scriptures, that the women and maidens must be scourged, as you do in your secret disciplining. But you have certainly well practiced the secret disciplining or scourging of the maidens and women, for thereby you gain such a great retinue of devotaries.
Fr. Corn. Bah, I would rather * * * than reply to all your talk; but answer my question.
Herm. All such barefaced lies, as that we have the women and maidens in common, I do not deem worthy of an answer.
Fr. Corn. Ah, bah I Is it a barefaced lie, that you Anabaptists have the women in common? Why then does all the world speak of it, and why then is it printed in so many books, which by us Catholics are written against you, and which I daily read. Fie, you adulterers! fie, you dishonorers of marriage I
Herm. All that are of the world are liars; hence you and your Catholics cannot be believed.
Fr. Corn. Ah, am I of the world, * * * you accursed, bewitched, damned Anabaptist that you are. Bah, you stupid beast, and do you not see, that I am spiritual? But you evince worldly works by having all the women in common; but I have vowed chastity; do you understand this, you dishonorer of marriage that you are?
Herm. We do not dishonor marriage; but if you are spiritual, and have vowed chastity, then it is surprising that you have your delight in this carnal, unclean, secret disciplining, or scourging of the women.
Fr. Corn. O you devilish Anabaptist and dishonorer of marriage, I could almost fly into your eyes or into your mouth; bah, what do you understand about my secret disciplining which I employ with my devotaries? Bah, you are filthy, carnal, unchaste, voluptuous rogues, that you thus use the women in common, like dogs. Yes, you damned dishonorers of marriage are nothing more than rotten, stinking dogs, carrions; for you go about it in this respect like dogs, though you would deny it before us; bah, fie, fie! shame upon you * * * Bah, if I cannot prevail upon you with kindness, I must try whether I can do it with severity; see now.
Clerk of the criminal court. Ah, father Cornelis, do be modest and keep your temper.
Recorder. Yes, converse together with kind, calm words; for it seems that you will continue to quarrel and bicker here like harlots.
Fr. Corn. Bah, my lords and may I not accuse him of what is true? I suppose so. Did you not hear yourselves yesterday, that that * * * bishop of the Anabaptists at first also wanted to deny everything; but when he perceived that I was so well acquainted with the matter, he acknowledged that there were some among them, who taught and practiced these things in secret, and when I soundly berated and convicted him with plain and conclusive arguments, he denied it no longer. Bah, why then should I not also have liberty to accuse and convict this one of it? Am I not come here to instruct and convert him? I think I am. See with what we are tormented. Why does he deny a matter which is true? * * * One may certainly talk here, I suppose?
Herm. Then I may also reply to you, that this matter is not true, because these things are lies; and I presume that Jacob, my fellow brother did well reply against it.
Fr. Corn. Yes, until I told him that the Anabaptists at Amsterdam and elsewhere, in Holland, ran stark-naked through the streets, men, women, boys and maidens, and said to one another, "My spirit desires your flesh." Bah I was this not a fine thing, eh?
Herm. No, this was not a fine thing; and hence we never regarded such as our brethren.
Fr. Corn. Bah! why would you deny it so strongly; for it is well enough known, that you Anabaptists do not regard the sacrament of marriage at all, because for a very little matter you loose and sever the marriage bond.
Herm. Since you bring so many untrue charges against us in regard to our marriage, I must ask you something respecting marriage that concerns you, and which is certainly no lie, for Paul writes thus to Timothy, in the fourth chapter (first
epistle), "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving."
Fr. Corn. Tush, tush hold your tongue; for we do not want any more preaching here; bah, begone, get you hence. * * *
Heron. If I could be gone .from here I would no longer listen to your blasphemies and lies.
Fr. Corn. Ah, you accursed, hardened, petrified Anabaptist, how the devils in hell (whither you will shortly go) will sit in your accursed mouth, with burning pitch, brimstone, tar, and Greek fire; just wait.
Herm. No; but I shall go under the altar which John saw in his Apocalypse, as is written in the sixth chapter, to the souls of them that, were slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held; who cried with a loud voice, saying,"How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
Fr. Corn. Yes, the devil's martyr you will be. * * * But this preaching would probably last all night; hence I go to my convent, and let you preach as long as you will, you damned, accursed Anabaptist, Sacramentarian, Trinitarian, and marriage dishonorer that you are; see.
In the meantime one of the aforesaid two martyrs, namely, Jacob de Roore, or the chandler, while imprisoned, wrote several letters replete with holy and divine things, which we deem it profitable to communicate to the reader; they are the following